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前言

《穆拉纳秘宝2》已经于不久前在Steam上发售了，回想起两年前在PLAYISM二楼会议室对NIGORO的楢村匠先生的采访，我至今仍记忆犹新。我仍然记得这位在线上表现得过于风趣的健谈家，出奇认真且直率地与我们探讨着游戏的制作思路，毫不避讳地阐述着自己的想法。甚至在一个小时的采访时间节后，我们都仍意犹未尽地在会议室外，看着《穆拉纳秘宝2》未完成的区域地图，探讨着自己对游戏的理解。如今，借着这个机会，我们将发布这次访谈的中英双语版，希望喜爱着Retro Games的玩家、以及憧憬着新事物向往着挑战的玩家，能够尝试一下这款非常优秀的作品。

自我介绍

Self-introduction

Comiday：首先还是麻烦您再做一次自我介绍。

Please introduce yourself once again.

楢村：我是NIGORO的楢村匠，虽然名义上是NIGORO的制作总指挥，但其实除了编程以外，图形设计、音乐、广告，什么都是我干。KickStarter宣传片里从沙丘（注：就是沙漠里的一个小土坡儿，楢村为了众筹去拍了个片）上一路滚下来的，那也是我。

I am Takumi Naramura from NIGORO. Nominally I am the director of NIGORO, but except from programming, I do graphics design, music, advertising and almost everything. It was also me who rolled down from the dune in the KickStarter promo video. (It was actually just a small mound of sand in the desert. Naramura took a video for crowdfunding)

Comiday：宣传片演出（注：这里的演出，是指导演、分镜方面的工作）都是自己来完成的吧？

You participated in the promo all by yourself, didn’t you? (Referring to directing, story board, etc.)

楢村：我为了设计专业学习而进了美术大学，在学校里学到了影像制作的相关知识。在进入游戏业界之前，也在电影公司工作过。怎么说，学生时代基本都不会考虑将来做怎样的工作，想着反正挺擅长画画，于是就进了美大。等实际入学以后，发现学校里有各种各样的影像器材，试着摆弄了一下，觉得特别有意思。所以说，自己做片的技术还是有的。

I went to art school in order to study professional design, and learnt the relevant knowledge of video production there. Before entering the game industry, I also worked in film companies. How to say, as a student I didn’t really consider what kind of job to do in the future. Thinking that I was good at painting anyway, so I entered an art University. When I entered the University, I found all sorts of filming equipment there and fiddled with them a bit, which was quite interesting. So I do have the skills to make films.

《穆拉纳秘宝》与《嘉里乌斯迷宫》

The connection between La-mulana and the Maze of Galious

Comiday：上次采访都是三年前的事儿了，那时自己并没有玩过《嘉里乌斯迷宫》这款游戏。这次好不容易有这个机会，想听楢村先生讲讲关于《嘉里乌斯迷宫》的故事，首先还是谈谈与《嘉里乌斯迷宫》的相遇吧。

Our last interview was three years ago. I didn’t play the Maze of Galious by that time. Let’s hear from Mr. Naramura about the Maze of Galious by this rare opportunity. First shall we talk about your encounter with the Maze of Galious?

楢村：日本最有人气的主机还是FC。日本虽被称作是游戏大国，但我们父母当年并不玩游戏，所以禁止孩子玩游戏的家庭不在少数。FC只能用来玩游戏，但电脑还能用来学点程序，父母一想，好像买台电脑还是没啥问题的。不过即便是买了电脑，孩子也只会用来打游戏而已。我们家虽然买了MSX，但FC显然更受欢迎，游戏也更多。在MSX平台的游戏中，KONAMI出的系列作品是制作最精良也是最受小朋友喜爱的，而其中的佼佼者当属有点儿像《银河战士》、《塞尔达传说》感觉的解谜动作游戏——《嘉里乌斯迷宫》。

In Japan, the most popular console was still FC. Although Japan is known as a big country for games, our parents actually did not play any games, so kids were forbidden to play games in lots of families. FC can only be used to play games, while PC can be used for programming as well. So the parents thought it would be fine to buy a PC. Although the kids were going to play games on it only anyway. Our family bought MSX but apparently FC was more popular and has more games. Amongst all MSX platform games, KONAMI’s game series were most well-made and welcomed among kids. The best of them were the Maze of Galious, a puzzle action game, similar to Metroid or the Legend of Zelda.

Comiday：你觉得《嘉里乌斯迷宫》的魅力在于？

What’s the charm of the Maze of Galious?

楢村：现在说到“METROIDVANIA”大家都懂是怎么回事儿。然而在那个年代，并没有这种类型的游戏，基本都是挨个清关的类型。对于我们MSX玩家来说，《嘉里乌斯迷宫》是第一个游戏一开始往哪儿走都可以、能随心所欲进行通关挑战的游戏，这点我觉得非常有吸引力。在一盘小小的卡带中，却有着广阔的世界，这种感觉让人心动不已。

Now everybody knows what metroidvania is, but at that time, there were no games of this genre. They were basically clearing stages one after one. For MSX players, the Maze of Galious was the first game that you could go wherever you want and challenge the boss as you wish from the start. I think that was fascinating. There is such a vast world in a small cassette, which is really exciting.

Comiday：但实际上是“一本道”吧。

But it was actually a ‘one straight road’ game, right?

楢村：是的，按顺序通过“世界（关卡）1”、“世界（关卡）2”，但首先放在你面前的是一座巨大的城堡，你可以在里边自由穿梭。游戏开始只要一直往左走两个画面就能到第一关，但你也可以把整个城堡先溜达一遍，集齐了所有道具以后再来挑战。和当时的游戏比起来，是相当出类拔萃了。

Yes. You still need to clear stage 1 and stage 2 in order, but the game starts with a huge castle in front of you in which you can explore freely. At the beginning of the game, you can reach stage 1 by walking to the left for two screens. However you can also explore the whole castle and collect all items before challenging stage 1. It was really outstanding compared to all other games at that time.

Comiday：以当时的游戏来说，《嘉里乌斯迷宫》真的是非常具有个性。

The Maze of Galious was very characteristic amongst games of that era.

楢村：是的。像《梦幻仙境（HYDLIDE）》啊，还有仍长盛不衰的《伊苏》系列，以及更早的《屠龙者（Dragon Slayer）》系列这些动作角色扮演游戏，有着广阔的世界观和极高的自由度。但在解谜动作游戏中，还没有可以跳跃式前进的作品出现。又容易上手，又有宏大的世界观。

Yes. RPGs like Hydlide, the still-popular Ys series, and the even earlier Dragon Slayer series all have massive fictional universe and high level of freedom. But for Puzzle Action Games, there was none that allows you to jump while moving forward, easy to get proficient and with a mass fictional universe.

Comiday：说起来，游戏说明书上有提及关于游戏自由度的内容吗？

Did the game guide mention anything like ‘this is an open-world game’?

楢村：并没有。现在可能很多人都觉得不看说明书就能玩的游戏才是好游戏，但以前的电脑游戏并没有这种所谓规则，有些说明书厚得跟砖一样。对于我们来说，阅读说明书是一种乐趣。FC因为包装盒很小，所以放不进大尺寸的说明书；但是电脑游戏的盒子很大，说明书也是又大又厚，有很多爱好者都热衷于说明书。《嘉里乌斯迷宫》的说明书上，写有所有道具的说明，还有角色背景说明和各种人物插画。那个时代还不存在“游戏教学”这种东西，所以完全没有“往这走”、“拿这个道具”一类的傻瓜式说明。

Not really. Nowadays many people will think good games don’ need any game guide to play. But back in those old days, there were no such role for games and some of the guides were as thick as bricks. For us reading the game guide was a fun. For FC games, because the size of the package, they couldn’t put in a big size game guide. But computer games all had very large packages with heavy and thick game guides. Many players were keen on reading the game guides. In the game guide for the Maze of Galious, there were explanation for all items, background description and illustration for all characters. There were no such thing as ‘game tutorial’ at that time, so you wouldn’t see dummy instructions like ‘go this way’ or ‘take this item’.

Comiday：因此才营造出了一种“突然被流放到另一个世界”的感觉吗？

That’s why it gave the players a feeling that they were suddenly exiled to another world, isn’t it?

楢村：是的。角色突然出现在地图正中央，而且没有任何说明。所以上手这个游戏，相信大部分玩家都不会老老实实去到第一关。而时常会出现的情况是，一开始马上往下走，发现有水，然后掉进水里淹死，或者是碰到一个以当前能力绝对战胜不了的大章鱼BOSS，随心所欲到处乱窜，然后以惨剧收场，复活后想着这次能不能走得更远，打倒这个BOSS会不会有什么事情发生……这种摸石头过河的探索方式我认为是最有意思的。所以我们也就把《La-mulana（穆拉纳秘宝）》做成了这样的游戏。

Yes. The game began with your character appearing in the center of the map, without any instructions. To start the game, I believe most players would not go to stage one directly. Often the situation was, the players went downward and found there was water, and then fell into the water drowned. Or they could encounter an octopus boss they were absolutely unable to defeat at their current level. They scurried around freely and ended up in horrible death. When they restarted they would endeavor to explore further and try to defeat the boss, etc. I think this sort of exploration is most interesting, so we made La-mulana such a game.

Comiday：《La-mulana2》最初的测试版也是如此，一往上走马上就有一个超强力的BOSS在房间里等着。

The first beta version of La-mulana2 was like this. You will meet a very powerful boss when moving upward.

楢村：是这样。不光是《嘉里乌斯迷宫》如此，当时的电脑游戏的卷轴并非是平滑滚动，而一定要走到画面角落之后，才能进到下一个房间，而这个广阔房间里的所有东西从一开始就尽收眼底。所以最初的关卡和游戏后期的洞窟副本会出现在同一张地图中，切换画面就能看到感觉非常强大的敌人，这种玩心跳的感觉非常爽。我们最早把《La-mulana》做成MSX风格的时候，是很随性地添加了这种表现。而重制的时候我们也是出于想确认一下有没喜欢这种风格的玩家，所以按照非平滑滚动的感觉去重制了。但如果现在推出这种作品，毕竟现在的绝大多数年轻玩家并不了解那个时代，所以会抱怨说《La-mulana》不够亲切啊，完全没有引导啊，不明不白就仆街了啊之类的。所以《La-mulana2》就在前作的基础上增加了引导要素，在初期让大家不那么一头雾水。但正如你所说，开始以后一上楼就发现上边有个强到不可战胜的BOSS，怎么说呢，我觉得这就是《La-mulana》这部作品的特点。

Exactly, and it was not just the Maze of Galious. The video games at that time didn’t have scrolling display yet. Rather, you must reach the edge of the screen to flick to the next room, and everything in this room will be visible to you. So the initial stage and the dungeon of a later stage will be on the same map. You can meet very powerful enemies when flipping to another screen. This was heart-racingly exciting. We initially made La-mulana a MSX-style game as we wanted. When remaking it, we also wanted to know if there are players who like this style and made the game un-scrolling. But if we made such game now, after all, the vast majority of young players now don’t understand that age, and will complain that La-mulana is not player-friendly, or there’s no tutorial, or they die in the game suddenly. So La-mulana2 added tutorial to make players not so confused at the beginning. But just like you said, at the beginning, you will face an invincible boss as soon as you step upstairs. I think this is the unique feature of La-mulana series.

Comiday：但在石碑上写有说明，让玩家可以循序渐进这种做法，本身就很亲切。

But there’re instructions on the stone markers as a guidance, which is quite player-friendly.

楢村：前作基本是放任自由的态度，而本作中特别设置了“敌人很强，之后打也行”之类的提示。但我们的目的是让游戏玩得非常溜的人一开始能打倒BOSS，然后跳到很后面的关卡。

In the previous one we offer complete freedom to the players, but in this one we specifically added hints such as ‘the enemy is very tough, come back and challenge later’. But our purpose is to allow the people really good at this game to beat the boss at the beginning and jump to later stage straight away.

Comiday：说到横卷轴，以前的游戏都是画面移动停止的一瞬间敌人才刷出来，《La-mulana》中也设置了类似这样的机关吧？

Talking about side-scrolling games, the old games all have the enemies refreshed when the screen finished flipping. La-mulana has similar mechanism, right?

楢村：以现今的技术来说，《La-mulana》也像《恶魔城》一样可以平滑滚动。但利用探索未知场所的环节，制造出恐怖感的做法很适合《La-mulana》这部作品。《La-mulana2》里边虽然有平滑卷动的场景，但卷动完以后突然眼前出现个大机关的方式会更有趣。那种兴奋，是切换画面以外的方式所无法体验到的。

With today’s technology, La-mulana can have scrolling display like Castlevania. But to explore the unknown and create a sense of horror, the flick-screen display method will better suit La-mulana. Although there will be scrolling graphics in La-mulana2, there will be a trap showing up suddenly when the scrolling finishes, which is more interesting. You cannot experience the same excitement without the flick-screen display.

Comiday：测试第一版本的时候，从右侧进到房间后眼前立马蹦出来一个敌人，真的非常有老游戏的感觉。

In the first beta version, once the screen flips to the right, an enemy will come out abruptly. It really feels like the old games.

楢村：这样的表现有其独特的魅力，最能让人感受到“惊愕”，我非常珍视这样的表现方法，并不会因为老就不用。

This mechanism has its unique charm and gives players astonishment. I cherish such mechanism and won’t refuse to use it simply because it’s old-fashioned.

Comiday：不是因为想让更多玩家仆街吗（笑）？

Not because you want to torture more players?

楢村：哈哈，这话可不是我说的，只是大家都这样说。

Haha, I didn’t say it. It’s because everyone else says so.

Comiday：回到正题，数年后再玩《嘉里乌斯迷宫》，有什么特别的发现吗？

Back to our topic. Do you have any new findings in playing the Maze of Galious again after so many years?

楢村：小时候沉迷其中，觉得非常完美，而回头看来莫名其妙得地方还蛮多的。比如说必须站个十秒平台才会出现之类的，我记得好像是看了当时杂志上的解答才知道的。卡关以后，便一直期待下个月的杂志赶快出，出了看到答案才终于能继续游戏。虽然当时很开心，但现在这样做的话，玩家搞不明白也就不玩了。但《嘉里乌斯迷宫》一开始，玩家确实很难认清世界的面貌，《La-mulana》大概也一样，一开始谁也搞不清游戏的目的。

I was indulged in this game when I was a kid, and thought it was perfect. Now I look at it, there are actually quite a lot of absurd things. For example, at one point you have to stand still for about 10 seconds before a platform showing up, which I only knew after reading the game magazines as I remembered. When I got stuck, I would have to wait for next month’s game magazine and read the walkthrough to continue the game. Although I was very happy at that time, but if I did it the same way now, the players will give up when they don’t understand. At the beginning of the Maze of Galious, it was really difficult to figure out the big picture. La-mulana is probably the same. No one knows the purpose of the game at the beginning.

Comiday：但氛围还是传达到了，《嘉里乌斯迷宫》还是由于当时的机能限制，很难表现出整体的世界氛围。

But it created the atmosphere successfully. Due to limited computer performance, it was very difficult for the Maze of Galious to present the overall atmosphere of the world.

楢村：同样，小时候并没有注意到这点。不过现在看来，根据城内地点的不同，城堡的地图背景也会发生改编。蓝色的墙砖，还有绿色的看起来像植物的部分，以及能看见赤月的地点，虽然图形很简单，但还是会有来到一个新地方的兴奋感。我觉得这就很好。像《嘉里乌斯迷宫》这样的游戏，我们还想玩得更久。再废寝忘食地去玩，也就只有8K到1M那么小小一个盒子的容量，想多玩一会儿，游戏就已经结束了。当时表现力也不太够，于是我们就幻想着能看到更斑斓的色彩和更长的关卡，而这种感情催生了《La-mulana》。所以，与其说是重新玩了《嘉里乌斯迷宫》，觉得有所不足，不如说是想着以现在的技术能更好地实现，而这一切的集合，就是《La-mulana2》。也许当时原作者真正想做的，也是这样的游戏。

Same, I didn’t pay attention to this when I was a kid. Looking at it now, the background of the castle will change at different places of the castle. The blue brick wall, the green pixels which looked like plants, and the red moon. Although the graphic was very simple, but it still gave me the excitement of coming to a new place. Games like the Gaze of Galious, you would want to spend more time on them. But no matter how devoted you are into the game, the size of the game is only between 8KB and 1MB, and the game ends sooner than you expected. So we were expecting longer and more colorful games, and this expectation created La-mulana. So instead of saying that we re-played the Maze of Galious and found the shortcomings of the game, I would rather say it is with today’s technology we can realize our dreams better, and all of this created La-mulana2. This is the type of game that the developer of the Maze of The Galious really wanted to make, perhaps.

Comiday：不过生不逢时。

I guess they were born at the wrong time.

楢村：那个时候的机器确实是没办法实现的。虽说我并没有直接去问过原作者，但我很能理解他们“更愿意这样去做”的想法。现在很多大公司虽然都在做老游戏的重制，但很多时候他们只是把图像全彩化了而已。但以前的游戏制作者的原意是想做更厉害的东西，但因为机能只能这样，所以才不得不妥协了。我们做的虽然是怀旧风格，但其实是捉摸着作者的意愿来进行制作的。

Computers at that time really couldn’t achieve it. Although I haven’t asked the developers directly, but I can understand that they would want to do so. Now many big game companies are re-making old games, but most of the time they are just making the pictures more colorful. For the developers of those old games, their intention was to make something more superb, but due to the limited performance of the consoles, they had to make some concession. Our game is of a nostalgic style, but was made out of contemplation of these developer’s ideas.

Comiday：不过《魔城传说》系列实际上有很多实验性的桥段在其中，比如说系列三作全部都是不同类型的游戏（注：第一作STG，第二作ARPG，第三作文字AVG）。

But the Knightmare series actually had many experimental contents. For instance, all three installments are of different game genres. The first one is an STG, the second one is an ARPG, and the third one is an AVG.

楢村：但是为什么故事接续在一起的三部作品会做成完全不同的类型，我至今也没能搞清楚这个问题。当时的MSX玩家基本都对KONAMI作品有着绝对的信赖，只要新作一出马上买买买。所以说奔着《魔城传说》的名号是必须买的，而实际玩的时候会发现微妙地联系在一起的部分，比如部分BGM其实是一样的。而《La-mulana》虽然是小规模的独立游戏，但还是会想要加入一些要素，让玩过1代的玩家能够在玩2代时，从中发现与1代的种种联结。现在的游戏即便第一作很能卖，但到第二作、第三作就渐渐卖不出去了，这种事儿挺常见的。因为不玩前作的话，就弄不明白剧情。所以大公司一般都不出“续作”，而开始做“系列作”。于是，即便不玩前作，也可以享受作品的乐趣。但我们还是要做，玩了前作，游戏的世界会更精彩。像《勇者斗恶龙2》里就原原本本地置入了《勇者斗恶龙1》的地图。如果玩过1代的话，走到那里就会兴奋异常。这些要素，是只有依靠“续作”才可以体现出来的。

Why were the three works with the same chronological storyline made into totally different genre of game? I haven’t been able to figure out even today. MSX players at that time basically had absolute trust in KONAMI, and would buy the new games once released. So they would definitely buy the Knightmare series even just for the reputation. And while playing they would find the parts that linked all three works together in subtle ways, such as the BGMs. La-mulana is a small indie game, but we also want to add some elements in it so that when players start playing the second work, they will find the link between the two works. Games these days usually sell well for the first work, but not very well for the second or third work, which is quite usual. Because if you don’t play the previous work, you wouldn’t understand the plot. So big game companies normally don’t make ‘sequel’ games. Instead they make ‘series’ games. So the players can enjoy the game even without playing the previous ones. But we are still making it because the gaming experience would be more fun if you have played the previous work. For example, if you have played Dragon Quest 2, you will get really excited when playing Dragon Quest 2 which has implemented the map of Dragon Quest 1. These elements can only be experienced in sequel works.

Comiday：玩《嘉里乌斯迷宫》还注意到的另一点是，游戏背景里出现的石碑，以及平常使用的小道具之类，从设计上来说，应该是给予了《La-mulana》相当的影响。

Another thing I noticed when playing the Maze of Galious is that the stone markers and other ordinary gadgets must have quite an influence on La-mulana in regards to the design.

楢村：首先，在《嘉里乌斯迷宫》中有一种叫做“虫眼镜（Mushi Megane）”的道具——也就是《La-mulana》中用于调查石碑的道具，但在原作中，可调查的石碑上只写着BOSS咏唱出的咒语。并且，在大量的石碑中，只有一个可调查，其他石碑上什么都没有写。固然有趣，然而却很浪费。你想好不容易专门实现了调查的功能，却只用来寻找续关密码，这不是白费吗？所以在做《La-mulana》的时候，我就想着能不能更积极地去使用这种功能。因为考古学这个东西，在我们脑海中就是到遗迹去探险，然后调查各种石碑。我们制作组成员都很喜欢遗迹，因此给每一种遗迹、每一个关卡赋予不同的图像。另外，在《嘉里乌斯迷宫》中其实有很多无意义的物件，像是破烂的窗帘和旗帜之类的，虽然它在作品中并没有什么卵用，但是却让人很在意。这部分确实是受到了《嘉里乌斯迷宫》极大的影响。在这些对通关游戏并没有什么用的物件上留下一些信息，而让这些物件可以用于调查的原因则是——“大概《嘉里乌斯迷宫》的制作者，实际上也很想这样做吧”。抱着这种想法，我们赋予了这些物件以意义。

First, in the Maze of Galious, there was an item called Mushi Megane, which is also the tool to read the stone markers in La-mulana. But in the Maze of Galious, the readable stone marker only has the spell casted by the boss. Besides, there was only one stone marker you can investigate amongst so many stone markers, the rest with nothing on them. It was fun but also a waste. Think about it. When you are finally able to investigate the stone markers, the only use for it is to find the saving password. What a shame! So when making La-mulana, I was thinking about ways to use this function more actively. Because when talking about archaeology, the first thing that came to our mind was exploring at the ruins and investigating all sorts of stone markers. All our team members are fond of ruins, so we designed different patterns for every ruin and every stage. Then, in the Maze of Galious there were many meaningless items, such as ripped curtains and banners. Although they had no use in the game whatsoever, but they really attracted your attention. La-mulana was greatly influenced by the Maze of Galious in this sense. The reason why we left message on these items, which didn’t help with clearing the stage, and make them investigate-able is because ‘maybe the producers of the Maze of Galious wanted to do this actually’. With this thought, we provided these items with meaning.

Comiday：这部分信息中，也有很多恶作剧式的信息，感觉已经成为游戏的一部分了。

Among all these messages, many are mischievous, which has become part of the game I think.

楢村：不过，那种调调在以前的游戏中也很常见。MSX玩家的骄傲——小岛秀夫监督也是从MSX开始进入游戏的世界的。他从很早之前就开始将搞笑桥段、文字游戏之类的塞到作品中去，或者是在包装内侧写上谜题的答案，这种做法给了我很多启发。以前的游戏中有很多隐藏信息，即便在游戏容量不足的情况下，制作人也敢于恶作剧。现在游戏容量大了，只要想到，就可以塞很多进去，这可能导致了恶作剧桥段看起来很多。在制作的途中，我就时刻注意着不要让游戏的气氛太过严肃，太过一本正经。

But the style was quite normal in those old games. The pride of MSX players, Director Hideo Kojima, also started his gaming legend from MSX. He started to add funny plot, word puzzles, etc. into the games, or printed the answers to the puzzles in the inside of the package. This has inspired me a lot. In the past, the games can have lots of hidden information. Even the size of game was restricted, the producers would still endeavor to mischievous. Now with the size of game increased, you can add as many of these plots as you wish, and eventually there seems to be way too many in the games. When producing the game, I paid attention not to make it too serious.

Comiday：也就是说像漫画一样存在“搞笑格”（注：Gag koma）对吧？

Like gag koma in manga, right?

楢村：是的，比如说像《剑风传奇》这样的漫画，拥有Dark Fantasy的世界观，但一个很漫画化的妖精一直都在旁边讲些笑话，这部分也有来自日本漫画的影响。而如果是世界观非常黑暗的游戏，虽然会一直在暗色调的氛围中进行，但比如像《La-mulana》的话，店员一边卖东西一边鬼扯，这绝对是源于漫画的部分。毕竟，游戏本身流程是很长的，和两个小时就结束的电影是不一样的。而《La-mulana》的话，会一直玩好几十个小时，如果一直沉浸在黑暗的氛围中的话，玩起来就感受不到快乐了。该高兴的时候就要高兴，该扯淡的地方就要扯淡，对吧。所以还是想要加入一些笑料进去。

Yes. For example, manga like Berserk has a Dark Fantasy world, but a very comical elf was joking around on the side all-time. This was influenced by Japanese manga. But regarding game, if the game has a rather dark world, then the color of the game would be constantly dark as well. But La-mulana is definitely influenced by manga in that the shop-keeper in the game will talk nonsense to mess with you. After all the gameplay can be rather long, nothing like a two hours movie. Especially with La-mulana where you can spend dozens of hours on. If the atmosphere is dark all the time, then it wouldn’t be fun when playing. So I just made it fun or foolish when it needs to be by adding some mischief or jokes in.

Comiday：节奏的调整吧。

That’s for tempo adjustment then.

楢村：是的，游戏有那么长，就要相应考虑那么多设计进去。

Yes. With such long game playtime, we have to consider all sorts of things.

Comiday：不过也有人喜欢那种一直阴沉沉的游戏……结果我们到现在都一直在说《嘉里乌斯迷宫》了（笑）。

But some people are just fond of those dark games. Basically we’ve been talking about the Maze of Galious. Is it alright?

楢村：上次提到已经是三年前的事情了。这三年来，我也去了很多海外的活动，也接受了美国记者的采访。但后来我才知道，尽管我提到了《嘉里乌斯迷宫》这回事，然而他们并不懂。实际上《嘉里乌斯迷宫》在海外也是鲜有人知。最近一提到《La-mulana》，我也开始说成是“像银河战士或者塞尔达一样的游戏”，但其实这两个作品我一个都没玩，于是就变成了公然撒谎（笑）。

We talked about it last time as well, which was indeed about three years ago. In these three years, I have been to many overseas events. I accepted interviews from American journalists as well. At first I talked to them about the Maze of Galious, but then later found out that they actually didn’t know it. In fact even overseas there’s barely anyone knows about the Maze of Galous. Recently I would just say ‘game like Metroid or Zelda!’ I have played neither of these games so it felt like I was lying.

Comiday：说起来可能有些后知后觉，其实我之前才知道《嘉里乌斯迷宫》的重制版实际上是存在的。

I only knew very recently that the remake of the Maze of Galious actually exists.

楢村：你知道啊？

You know well.

Comiday：好像你也参加了那个游戏的制作？

Have you participated in making that game?

楢村：我提供了一些游戏图形素材。

I provided some graphics.

Comiday：只是图形素材吗？

Just graphics?

楢村：关于这个事我也查了一下，当时自己已经淘汰了MSX，取而代之买了一台苹果电脑开始网上冲浪，那个时候知道有这部作品。记得应该是海外的作品，可能是欧洲那边的玩家制作的。我们玩到的MSX版的《嘉里乌斯迷宫》动作是比较缓慢的，大致是电视的PAL制式用50帧左右的速度播BGM的感觉，可能这让欧洲玩家感到有些不爽快。关于这部作品的图像设计，当时是可以以替换文件夹的形式把一套图形全部替换掉。于是重制的时候海外玩家就按照自己的喜好，制作了好几个版本的图像文件放在游戏目录下，但是我全都不满意。MSX是15色的机器，而这些玩家使用现在的色彩制作的新图像全都是MSX时代原原本本的感觉。比如说砖块和石碑在现实世界中完全不可能是那样的颜色，对吧？因为MSX只有15色，所以才做成了那样的砖块颜色。但这些玩家做的图形文件全部都只是增加了颜色数，让人看到后感觉眼中充满杂质，闪得不行。而《嘉里乌斯迷宫》的作者的意图，并非是想做一块蓝色的砖出来，而是想还原真正的砖的感觉，但MSX只能用这种颜色来描绘砖块。我想放到现在，作者也不会想画一块蓝到刺眼的砖出来，就干脆尝试着自己做做。我做的图形基本上是无视掉了MSX原本的颜色，直接考虑真实石头的颜色，然后用个人风格设计出来。而且并不使用点阵图，而是画一幅大图然后缩小来用。现在《La-mulana》的制作也沿用了同样的做法。简单来说，就是并非是照搬老游戏的现成，而是动脑去探究作者的意图，这也是我制作游戏以来的亲身所感。

I also looked into it. It was when I stopped using MSX and bought a Macintosh for internet surfing that I knew about this game. It was indeed an overseas work, probably made by European players. The motion of the Maze of Galious on MSX was a little bit slow, and the tempo of the BGM is slower in Japan as well. I think it’s because in Europe the PAL for TV is 50 frames and the tempo of the music is based on this. Regarding the graphics, it was designed as the whole set of graphics being put under a folder so that it could be replaced. When the overseas users were remaking the game, they include several remade graphic sets. But I didn’t like any of them. MSX has only 15 colors, and the colors used by the new game were as if they were all from MSX as well. For example, in real world, stone blocks and stone markers shouldn’t have such color. I think the blocks were colored like that because MSX only had 15 colors. But when the other people were adding such colors to the graphic set, it gave people a strong noisy feeling. The people who made the Maze of Galious was not intending to color the blocks in blue; rather they wanted to draw them like real blocks. But due to the limits on MSX they had to use this color. I don’t think they would use such flashy blue color if it was done today, so I just tried to color it myself. When I was making the graphic set, I basically ignored the color of MSX, and considered the color of real stone and designed by my own style. And instead of using dot chart, I drew a big figure and reduced the size. Now La-mulana is using the same method. In short, you need not just to copy from the retro game, but to understand what the producers were pursuing. Perhaps that was the first thing that I felt.

Comiday：也就是说，多从制作者的角度来想问题，是吧？

That is to think more from the perspective of the creators, right?

楢村：是的。PS刚出的时候PCE移植作品也很多，只是把皮肤上的影子增加一种颜色来做，结果加上去反而看起来很土鳖，这样的情况并不少见。自从可使用的颜色多了以后，大家都开始使用各种各样的颜色，但是并非所有人都那么有审美、有品位。

Yes. Many PC engine games were ported to PlayStation when it came out. But what they really did was to add one more color to the skin shadow color, and made it look horrible. Because there were more colors to be used, people just used a lot of color. But not everyone has good taste or sense.

Comiday：现在的玩家也很难喜欢上那样充满杂质的画了，本身他们所想要的并不是那样的东西。

After all it is hard for players now to like images with such noise in them, and I feel that’s not what they were originally pursuing as well.

楢村：现在也有大公司在做FC时代作品的重制，甚至是3D化的作品。结果一看，草原真的是艳丽扎眼的黄绿色，树则一棵一棵地栽在草原上。作者本身是想表现出茂密森林的场景，然而由于机能问题只能做出那样的图形，但重制版真的就把树的3D建模一棵……隔一段儿……一棵地放在草地上。看到那种重制的路子真觉得挺烂的。

Even now big companies are remaking games of FC eras, or converting them into 3D games. But the grassland was in a really bright yellowish-green color, and the trees were standing there alone one by one. The original games were made like this due to the graphic limit of the GameBoy. What they really want is to show a more grown forest. But the remake really built the tree model in that way by placing them on the grassland one by one alone. When you look at that, you would think that was some really bad remake.

Comiday：还是要从更根本的地方开始考虑。

That is to think from a more fundamental point.

楢村：没错。

Exactly.

小插曲：关于英语

Interlude: About Mr Naramura’s English

Comiday：顺便一提之前说到感觉楢村先生英语很好的事儿，我想造成这个误会的原因，大概是因为参加了这个企划，而且还在海外进行了演讲。

By the way, I said that Mr Naramura’s English was really good before. That is because you participated in this project, and also made presentations overseas.

楢村：啊，那个大概是我用网站上的翻译机翻译的（笑）。因为是邮件交流，所以一开始是发去了一封“我做好图形了，发给你们”的邮件，之后他们回邮件的时候，说的是“我们想做成全彩，你能提供素材吗”，素材我都扔掉了，没法做了啊！反正就是这样尴尬的交易。英语我真的一点儿不会说，要么用翻译网站要么用翻译软件，然后一边和人交流的感觉吧。

That’s probably because I translated into Japanese on some translation site. Since it was communication via email, at first I sent them an email saying ‘I am sending some graphics that I made’. Then they replied and asked, ‘we want to make full color. Do you have the materials?’ But I have discarded the materials already! So we just communicated like this. But I really can’t speak English. I just kind of using translation site or translation software.

Comiday：在台湾演讲的时候呢？

How about your presentation in Taiwan?

楢村：当时是带了翻译过去。正好PLAYISM（日本的游戏发行商）有一位台湾人，就全程给我们做引导……说实话我真的很想学英语说英语。即便演讲有半个小时时间，结果在翻译那儿就流失了一半儿，剩下只能说15分钟的内容，而且翻译一开口说话我就只能傻站在一边。如果我能说英语的话，可能演讲起来会更容易一些。

We had a translator. At that time PLAYISM has a staff from Taiwan, and that staff guided us through. I really wanted to be able to speak English though. Even I got 30 minutes to present, in fact I only talked for about 15 minutes, because the translator started to talk, I had to wait quietly. It would be easier if I could talk in English.

Comiday：不会说英语的话，光通过翻译传达正确信息也是一件不太容易的事情。

I think if you can’t speak English, it’s difficult to just communicate information via translators

楢村：现在不是有那种网上英语培训学校吗？我觉得那可能不错。但是，像是现在日本从事独立游戏开发的稻船敬二先生和五十岚孝司先生，他们也都不会说英语。并且他们也表示“英语？我就算了”，我想着既然他们都不会说，那我不会说也没什么关系，大概（笑）。

There are something like online English schools now, aren’t there? I think that would be a good idea. But for example, Indie game producers like Keiji Inafune or Koji Igarashi couldn’t speak English either. And they said ‘No English is ok’. So I think if they are ok of not being able to speak English, then I should be ok as well.

Comiday：不过要在世界范围内交流的话，还是会英语比较好。

However I think it’s better to be able to speak English to communicate world-wide.

楢村：到海外的活动上与他人进行交流的话，要能懂英语就可以畅谈许多话题。我在日本应该算是非常能说的独立游戏制作人，但到了海外可能会被人误会成是无口类型的制作人吧，因为我根本不会说英语好伐（笑）！

When going to overseas events and talk with people, I would be able to talk various things if I could speak English. In japan I’m such a talkative person amongst indie game developers, but overseas users may think I’m a reticent person. All because I can’t speak English.

关于《La-mulana2》

About La-mulana2

Comiday：关于英语的话题还是算了（笑），让我们进入下一个环节。《La-mulana2》的企划是什么时候出来的呢？能把详细过程给我们说一说吗？

So much about speaking English. Let’s move on to next topic. When did the project of La-mulana2 come out? Can you tell us the details of the situation?

楢村：实际上在做WiiWare的《La-mulana》重制版的时候，就已经有2代的构想了。在大概08、09年，最早做完作品准备以“独立”的形式起步的时候，却发现没有在主机上发售自作游戏的方法。那时候既没有独立游戏这个说法，也没有现在的自费发行这种模式。

Actually I was planning La-mulana2 when I was remaking La-mulana on WiiWare. In about 2008 or 2009, when I first finished La-mulana, and was about to start as an Indie game, I couldn’t find a way to sell Indie games on consoles. There was no such thing as indie game at that time, or self-publish like today.

Comiday：基本上感觉更像是同人。

Basically it was like doujin game.

楢村：是的，但我那个时候就考虑到，日本由于人口不多，如果想把做游戏当饭吃，不开拓海外市场是行不通的。只是，具体怎么去做，完全摸不着门路。最早是北美的公司发来的邀请，问有没有把《La-mulana》搬上WiiWare的想法，把MSX风的《La-mulana》和进行了高清重制的《La-mulana》一起打包移植。但是MSX比起FC的表现力，还是差了一大截。保留8格点阵一卡一顿把卷轴刷出来的风格，感觉并没有什么意义。不要说现在，当时能理解的人都已经很少了，玩家看到了只会表示“卧槽这卷轴什么鬼”而已。而且现在再去还原这种感觉，也完全是费力不讨好的做法。

But japan only has a small population, and it would be absolutely necessary to sell my games overseas if I wanted to work in gaming industry. I was thinking about this at that time, but I couldn’t find a way to do it. At first it was a company from North America asking me ‘do you want to port La-mulana on WiiWare’. At that time they asked me to have the graphic and style remaining as they were, and ported together with the remake graphics in a whole set. However, since MSX is worse than FC in expressiveness, I thought it’s pointless to keep the scrolling feature of every 8 dots. Not to mention now, even at that time people couldn’t understand, and would say ‘what the hell is with this scrolling’. It would be really troublesome to do so as well today.

Comiday：也就是所谓“处理延迟”的感觉吧。

It’s so called ‘slowdown issue’, isn’t it?

楢村：所以说我们一直抱有做无用功的疑问。然后对面的公司就说要不要保持原有画面编写新的剧情来成套贩售，所以新剧本的构想那时候已经有了。所以实际上从WiiWare版《La-mulana》制作的时候开始，就已经埋下了几条为2代做铺垫的伏线了。《La-mulana》中有一条信息是说2012年世界会毁灭，但制作PC版的时候调整为了2015年，也就是说我们本来打算在当年就把续作做出来的，但完全没能实现。

That’s why we always have the question that ‘isn’t it meaningless to do so?’ Then the company told us to keep the graphics as they were, but to think of other scenario to sell in sets. At that time I have actually had thoughts of other scenarios. So since I was making La-mulana for WiiWare, I have already put some hints in it for La-mulana2. In La-mulana there was a message saying the world would be destroyed in 2012. But when I was making the PC version it was changed to 2015, which was because we were planning to finish La-mulana2 in that year. However we couldn’t make it.

Comiday：那么就把世界末日推迟吧！

Then just postpone the doom day again!

楢村：要么推迟——！要么就在1代通关以后，在2代里说明“实际上当年世界并没有毁灭”。而关于2代的暗示点，比如说在《La-mulana》开始时的地图上实际上是有画出《La-mulana2》的舞台的——在那张地图上悄悄地把“伊格拉纳”这个遗迹的名字写了进去。一般来说，在1代出了以后，两三年内马上出续作就OK了，但是《La-mulana》中间有这么长的真空期，现在2代虽然要出了，但是已经不好把这件事说明白了。其实以想以续作的形式早点儿做一个沿用1代系统，但是变更剧本内容的2代出来的。但制作途中就觉得而既然冠上了2代的名字，那么系统如果没有进化的话，总觉得自己无法接受。不光是我，程序也觉得不能接受。既然不更新换代，那我也不愿意冠上2代的标题。所以比起沿用系统来做，还是全盘重来会比较好。

Either postpone it, or to explain in La-mulana2 that ‘the world did not perish in that year’ after clearing La-mulana. And the hint for La-mulana2 was hidden in the map of La-mulana, for example, the stage of La-mulana2 was shown on the map at the beginning of La-mulana. The name of the ruins called Igurana was secretly written on that map. Normally it is fine to issue sequel work in 2 to 3 years. But for La-mulana there was such a long period of blank, now it’s a little bit hard to explain. I was actually planning to make a sequel game with the same system of the first one but different scenarios. But as I got on with it, I found it unacceptable by calling it sequel 2 without any evolution on the system. Not just for me, but our programmers as well. We don’t want to call it La-mulana2 without anything new. So instead of using the existing system, we prefer making a new one.

Comiday：不过最早的测试版完全就是1代的感觉啊。

But the earliest beta version of La-mulana2 feels completely like the first generation.

楢村：是的，实际上计划来说就是沿用1代系统来做2代的。但是既然在Kickstarter上做了众筹，而且冠上了2代的名号，那不认真重新做个好的，我们感情上也无法接受。作品构想确实是从08年左右，剧本刚定下来的时候开始一直在考虑着。

Yes. The actual plan was to make the second piece with the first generation’s system. But since we had done the kickstarter and called it La-mulana2, I think it’s not convincing if we don’t make a new one property. I have been thinking about it all the time since 2008, when I decided the scenario.

Comiday：主角也有考虑吗？

Have you considered the main character as well?

楢村：在开会时开玩笑的时候提起过，如果要做2代的话，小杉博士喜得女儿，然后把女儿作为主角来做的话会不会很有趣呢？然后就沿着这个思路去做了。但是实际进入制作以后程序表示“主角还是男人好”，但画师是我呀！比起画男人，当然还是画妹子更开心啦！我很早就想用妹子来当做作品主角了。

We talked about it during our meetings as a joke. Would it be more interesting that Dr. Kosugi had a daughter and she becomes the main character of the second work? So we started making the game. But when in the production, the programmer said ‘actually it’s better to have a male main character.’ Well, I am the painter, and it’s more fun to draw females than males. I’ve been thinking of making a girl the main character all time.

Comiday：主角的变化是一方面，实际上最新的测试版中的游戏内容也发生了巨大的变更。比如说陷阱和角色的移动变化等，您在这些方面有没有特别意识着某些作品去做呢？

 Besides the changes of the hero, in fact if you play the latest version of the demo, you will find big changes in the contents of the game as well. For example, the traps and the way our character moves. Were you making those changes for specific thoughts?

楢村：与其说是意识着去做……因为现在开发环境已经变成了Unity，所以要把之前的系统推翻，从零开始。Kickstarter的最早测试版是沿用了前作系统，也就是说在一个成熟的系统下面去变更数据而已，而现在我们是要把系统也全部替换掉。虽然我们现在在Kickstarter已经公开了α版，但是系统还没有完全做好，被岩石压住也死不了，鞭子抽到一些特殊的地方也不会触发天罚。然后，使用Unity以后才发现，有很多和前作一样的效果是实现不了的。所以说现在这个α版里可能很多地方都不太像《La-mulana》。但我要说的是，我们现在制作中的版本，雷是会劈到主角身上的。之前由于是2D游戏，如果不是地板和墙壁水平运动是无法挤死人的，而本作由于是Unity开发，所以不光是水平垂直，连Z轴上的运动也可以做到，总之只要被夹到就是死路一条。2代既保留了前作的优点，又修正了前作的缺点和不足之处。而且，我们还按照最初的计划添加了新的动作。不过既然是用Unity重新制作，只要有新发现，我们都会利用起来，所以现在往往是一边在做，一边下决定。

Rather than saying that I was doing it consciously, it’s more because that the development environment has changed to Unity now and we had to redo everything, starting from the system. The first demo version of the Kickstarter used the system of our previous work. It was just changing data while the system had been completed. But now we have replaced the whole system as well. Although we released the alpha version via Kickstarter, but the system hasn’t been completed. A fallen rock won’t crush you, and the divine punishment won’t be triggered when whipping some special places. After we had used Unity, we realized that we couldn’t make some of the effects like the previous one. So this alpha version has many aspects unlike La-mulana. But the version we’re working on will have thunder striking the character. Since the previous one was a 2D game, the character won’t be crushed unless the floor and the wall move horizontally. But the current one is developed using Unity, so it can move not only vertically and horizontally, but on the Z axis as well. Anyway if you are stuck, then you are dead. La-mulana2 not only kept the advantage of the previous work, but adjusted the shortcomings as well. Besides, we added new moves as initially planned. But since we are remaking the game using Unity, we will use any new ideas. So it feels that we are deciding while making the game.

Comiday：原来如此，取消天罚的原因原来是这个啊。

I see. That’s the reason why the divine punishment was cancelled.

楢村：所以说现在的α版相当于是没有做完的版本，一般来说游戏公司都不会把这个版本放出的。但我们之所以放出，还是考虑到让大家试着玩一玩这个开发中的未完成品，然后可以听取玩家的意见，觉得哪里比较奇怪之类的。实际上我们在业余时代最早做MSX版《La-mulana》的时候，也在制作途中放出了未完成品。毕竟现在做的东西流程很长，一关做完大家就试着玩玩看。还有就是，虽然游戏没有做完，大家也可以通关看看，然后我们埋头花一年的时间再把这个游戏做完。我们现在采用了与当时相同的方式，总之就是告诉大家我们现在做成这样了，你们也来看看。大公司还是不敢这样做，但独立游戏我觉得这样做无可厚非。只不过如果让太多人看到的话，可能会被人吐槽说“跟说好的完全不一样嘛”。不过真正喜欢《La-mulana》的人是一定会去玩的。虽然现在还没有天罚，但以后这里肯定会加上，抱着这样的想法的人肯定是有的。顺便公开一下我们的计划，我们计划在TGS之前将《La-mulana》风格的新系统一口气完成，然后出一个最终测试版。出完以后，直到做完游戏为止都不会再公布其他内容了。

So, the version that I gave out with Kickstarter was unfinished, and normally game companies won’t release such games. We did that because we want everyone to have a play with the underdevelopment game and listen to their options to find out which part is not right. In fact, when I first made the MSX version of La-mulana as an amateur, I released my unfinished work as well. After all, it takes a long time to make a game, and I would ask everyone to trial play whenever I finish one stage. Moreover, even the game is unfinished, even the game is unfinished, we can still clear it, and spend another year to finish it. Now we are adopting the same method by telling everyone that, ‘I’m making such a game, come and have a look.’ Big companies may dare not to do so, but I think it is ok for indie games. If too many people see this, they may get upset and say ‘it is totally different from the previous one!’ But true La-mulana lovers will definitely play it. ‘Although there’s no divine punishment so far, but the producer will definitely add it here.’ Surely some people will believe this. By the way, we are planning to finish the new system of La-mulana before the Tokyo Game Show, and publish a final beta version. After that we won’t announce any other contents until we finish the whole game.

Comiday：《La-mulana2》最初的测试版中有相当多的“楢村桥段”，而实际上玩了新的测试版以后，发现在传统的角色跳跃动作方面发生了变化，所以我感觉在这些方面您也在进行着一些新的尝试。

In the first demo version of La-mulana2, there were many ‘Naramura Style’ designs. But when I actually played the latest demo version, I found that you changed the way the character jumps. I assume you are trying something new in this game as well?

楢村：确实是的。前作几乎是保持了《嘉里乌斯迷宫》原作的跳跃方式，垂直起跳后可以自由地左右移动，但斜跳后是无法做反方向移动的。关于跳跃的设定，我也是看了玩家的游戏视频才了解到，这种跳跃方式的精髓并没有给新一代年轻玩家传达到位。知道梗的人当然能联想到“啊，以前也有用这种跳跃方式的游戏”，但现在那种起跳后可以拽回来的“超常人跳跃”才是游戏的主流，所以我也觉得事到如今也不必执着去还原《嘉里乌斯迷宫》的跳跃方式了。所以在最近的测试版中，玩家斜跳后也可以拽得回来一点儿。并不是说以前怎样现在就必须得怎样，既然用Unity重新制作了，感觉上这样的跳跃会更加流畅，所以最终决定采用这样的跳跃方式。

That’s right. Jumping in the previous work really just copied from the Maze of Galious. When jumping vertically you can move freely in the air, but if you jump obliquely then you won’t be able to move to the opposite position. When I watched the walkthrough video, I found that young players totally didn’t get why the jumping is designed this way. But for players who knew this would thought, ‘there were games with such jumping before.’ But now the mainstream is that you can still ‘pull back’ your character after jumping forward. So I think it’s no longer necessary to stick to the way in the Maze of Galious. That’s why in the latest version when you jump forward, you can still pull the character back in the air. It’s not saying that we have to follow the way we did things in old times. It’s just since we are remaking it using Unity, it would be smooth to jump in this way and that’s why we decided to change it.

Comiday：原来如此。另外我们也发现测试版中存在很多未完成的区域，从这些未完成的元件中可以看出您的一些习惯，比如说先用颜色去铺陈区域整体的氛围，这是您的一般做法吗？

I see. Also I found a lot of unfinished areas. I can assume some of your personal habits from them, such as that you would create the atmosphere by using the color first. Is it the method you normally use?

楢村：是的，特别《La-mulana》是以MSX风为目标制作的游戏，而那个时代的游戏可用的色彩数非常少，如果不把墙壁与背景的颜色区分开来，画面会变得难以辨识，加上关卡数非常多，必须在玩家传送到下个房间的瞬间让玩家意识到自己身在何处，所以各个关卡的颜色搭配也必然需要做到不同，于是《La-mulana》中故意使用了绿色的墙砖，当然这在现实中是绝不可能的。这么十来二十个关卡，为了让玩家在进入关卡的瞬间对整个关卡、包括目前看不到的关卡的区域有一个清楚的认知，所以就事先用颜色决定了关卡的主题。《La-mulana2》也是在地图企划出炉的时候就决定全区域使用不同配色。地图只是四四方方，然而颜色可以制造落差，这些都是作为一个游戏设计者仔细考量过的。

It is. Especially La-mulana was aimed at MSX style. Speaking of the games of that era, as the number of colors usable was small, if the colors of the wall and background were not differentiated, it would be difficult to recognize the screen. Besides there were many stages, we have to let the players know where they are the instant when they wrap to the next room. So the colors for each stage must be different, and in La-mulana we used green color for the bricks on purpose, which is impossible in reality of course. I have decided the theme of each stage by different colors for all these dozens of stages, just to make sure the players will have a clear understanding to the stage, including the field they can’t see yet when they are wrapped into the new stage. La-mulana2 also used different colors for the whole area when we were designing the map. The map is just square, but the colors can be different, and that’s been carefully considered by a game designer.

Comiday：对玩家感情的起伏也有影响吧。

It’ll affect players’ feeling also.

楢村：是的。

Yes.

Comiday：但是颜色的瞬间变化如果有太大落差，可能会造成统一感上的缺失。

But when the colors change too much, then the game will lose the sense of unity. What do you think of this?

楢村：完全按照脑海中的方案去设计的话，往往不会一帆风顺。除此之外还有音乐的部分，我们需要把这些元素全部整合在一起。分关卡来设计颜色和音乐，当把关卡全部联结在一起来玩的时候就会发现不协调的部分。之所以现在已经发售了的《La-mulana》音乐集中，未使用曲的数量非常多，原因就是产生了“不协调感”。所以在试玩中，几乎肯定会有发现了问题后，去进行图像或者音乐调整的情况。

It usually doesn’t go smoothly if you make the game completely following the thoughts in your head. There’re also BGMs, so we have to combine them all. After deciding the color and music for each stage, and completing all stages, we played the game from the beginning and found the strange places. La-mulana’s soundtrack is on sale now, and there’re lots of unused songs, and that’s the reason why we didn’t use them. So when playing the game, we would notice the problems and make adjustment to the graphics or music.

Comiday：关于这方面，区域连结和转换也是相当重要的要素，可能对游戏节奏也会产生相当的影响。在试玩途中，你会经常注意到这方面吗？

The rooms which connect different stages are quite important as well and I think will strongly influence the tempo of the game. Will you check it regularly during testing?

楢村：最初制作《La-mulana》时，在制作小组成员中也发生了同样的议论。比如说《恶魔城》或《银河战士》这样的作品，关卡移动会设置到关卡的另一侧，然后穿越一道门进入下一道关卡。从进入关卡到离开关卡可能需要BGM循环一次那么长的时间。但是《La-mulana》不一样。一方面《La-mulana》可以瞬间移动，另一方面，有时刚进一个新区，走完一个画面就来到了另一片新天地上，这样一来BGM就会不停地来回切换。因此，小组中有人提议说“要不要不让BGM变得那么勤”、“要不我们一块地方就播一首歌好了”，但从本质上来说，我是那种各种东西都想尝试去做的人。《La-mulana》的地图毕竟有那么大，察觉到失败时可以轻松地用“传送”的方式逃走。如果没有传送这个功能，大概玩家会更讨厌《La-mulana》吧。掉入落穴后发现下方全是设置好的陷阱，明明知道死亡即将来临，只要按下暂停，就可以用传送逃走。其实，我为了补课也玩了很多银河战士恶魔城式的游戏，玩了以后才发现这类的“传送”功能是只有《La-mulana》才有的，也算是作品的一大特征吧。确实《La-mulana》颜色显得太杂、音乐种类太多，但我认为这也是这款游戏本身的特点，并把它好好保留下来。但是如果做得太过火，我还是会罢手的，毕竟实际制作时是会注意到这方面的问题的。

This was also discussed between the members when we first started making La-mulana. For example, in Castlevania or Metroid, change of stage will happen at the edge of the stage, where players need to enter through the door to the next stage. It takes about one loop of the BGM to go through one stage. But in La-mulana the players can wrap instantly. Also, when entering a new stage, the players will move to another map after only one screen, and the BGM will change a lot. So a member suggested ‘would it be better if the BGM doesn’t change so frequently’ or ‘maybe we can just use one song for the whole’. But I’m after all a person who would like to try various things. La-mulana has a really big map, and the players can easily wrap to escape when they foresee their failure. Without this, perhaps people will hate La-mulana then. When you fall into a trap and realized your death is coming, you can press the pause button and wrap to escape. I think that’s a very characteristic feature. I played lots of Metroid or Castlevania type of games to learn from them and realized this. It’s true that there’re so many types of graphics and music, but I think that is also a feature of La-mulana and I want to keep it. But I will stop if it gets too much.

Comiday：说起来《恶魔城》中会有连结各区域的、带有过渡性质的走廊，你觉得那种设计如何？

In Castlevania there are corridors connecting different areas as well as a transition. What do you think of such design?

楢村：《La-mulana》因为本身是以《嘉里乌斯迷宫》为蓝本制作的，如果将MSX的图像以8位方式来区分的话，实际上是在地板、空间、地板、空间四个分段中搭建迷宫。但是现在的游戏，例如2D的恶魔城，如果要做一个走廊，那么一整个画面就都会是走廊。这样一来，无意义的房间就会增加。《La-mulana》是遗迹探险游戏，是在一个画面中的四个楼段上加入信息量的。而《恶魔城》之所以在换区时制作一个区域连结用的走廊，大概是因为要读取下个关卡数据的原因。但是，停止播放BGM，制造出寂静的环境，在画面上只显示出前行的道路，这种氛围营造得非常好。

La-mulana was originally based on the Maze of Galious. If we divide the graphic of MSX by 8 dots, we are actually making a maze in four sections, floor, space, floor and space. But for today’s games, for example the 2D Castlevania, when you are making a corridor, then the whole screen is the corridor. Then it’s going to increase meaningless rooms. Since La-mulana is a ruin exploration game, details are added on the four floors on the same screen. The reason for Castlevania to link different areas with corridor is probably because it needs to load data of the next stage. But by muting the BGM to create a silent environment, and display the room with only a road leading ahead, it has created a very good atmosphere.

Comiday：也制造出了紧张感。

It also creates a tension.

楢村：是的，制作连结房间的人用的手法很巧妙，让人感觉不到是在读盘。但以如今的电脑处理能力来说，基本不存在读盘的情况，瞬间切换完全不是问题。实际上关于连结场景的设计，我们也讨论过是否要模仿那种氛围去做。但虽然都是挥鞭杀敌的游戏，类型却是不同的。《恶魔城》更偏向于动作游戏，有很多能力很强的杂兵挡路，一不小心就命丧黄泉。我们的程序设计也非常喜欢《恶魔城》，希望把《La-mulana》的杂兵也做得很强，但是被我制止了。《La-mulana》为了解谜要反复通过同样的地点，如果杂兵太强的话，大家就会觉得烦了。于是我就对他说了，BOSS设计得强一点儿没关系，杂兵尽量削弱一些。把好的游戏拿来当作参考的话，难免情不自禁地会想去模仿，但是我们也必须根据自身游戏的特点去做出考量。《La-mulana》的关卡连结设计看起来是一团乱，表面上连在一起的两个关卡，一往里走发现被传送到了一个别的地方，整体来说是迷宫式的设计。使用这样的地图构造，也是考虑到还原老游戏的感觉，但根据游戏发售后收到的反馈来看，许多玩家都搞不懂这种设计，所以在续作中我们会把关卡都从物理上连结在一起。

Yes. Because it’s designed in such a smart way that people won’t realize it’s for loading the game. But with the processing power of the computers today, there’s no need to worry about loading any more. It can be done instantly. In fact, regarding how to connect different scenes, we have discussed whether to imitate Castlevania or not. Even they’re both waving a whip, but they are different type of games. Castlevania is more of an action game. There are lots of tough mobs on the way, and you can get killed if not careful. In fact our programmer also likes Castlevania very much and wanted to make very tough mobs in La-mulana as well. And I told him it wasn’t a good idea. To solve a mystery, the players need to pass through the same place several times. If the mobs were too strong, people will start to hate it. So I told him, “I don’t mid the boss to be tough, but do make the mobs weak.” After all, when we are referring to good games, we tend to imitate them as well. But it’s also essential to consider the features of our own game. The connection between stages in La-mulana is also very confusing. It looks like the two stages are connected. But as you go, you’ll be teleported to a totally different place, just like a maze. Such structure was used to leave the players an atmosphere of retro games. But after we sold the game and heard back from the players, we found that many people don’t understand this design. So in La-mulana2 we will make adjacent stages physically connected as well.

Comiday：除了用颜色和音乐等元素以外，《La-mulana》还有什么调动玩家感情的方式吗？

Apart from using elements such as color and music, is there any other way for La-mulana to touch the feeling of the players?

楢村：普通的通关型游戏，特别是有着戏剧化的故事的游戏，作者会从控制悲喜的套路上去考量，相对来说做起来比较容易。而在《La-mulana》中，玩家是可以自由行动的，那做起来就比较困难了。如果说我是想展现戏剧化的故事给大家看的话，就会做一个依次清关类型的游戏了，而反其道而行之则正是《La-mulana》的特征。比起那种方式，我更喜欢在玩家攻克难关以后马上布置一个陷阱，比如在第一作中打倒BOSS以后头顶上会掉东西下来，通过游戏性来调整玩家的感情。说起来，在最近的游戏中，游戏教学扮演着越来越重要的角色，好不容易把感情投入游戏，突然画面一停开始显示说明文字，我非常讨厌这样的设计。

For normal stage clear type of game, especially games with cinematic stories, the makers will use the pattern of deciding when to make it sad and when to make it funny. It’s comparatively easier to do. But in La-mulana the players can move as they want, so it’s hard to make. If I wanted to show a dramatic story, I will make a game in which the hero clears stages one by one. But La-mulana is on the contrary. Compared with those games, I prefer to plant a trap right after the players has cleared a really difficult stage and are in their great joy. For example, in La-mulana1 after you defeat a boss, things will drop from above your head. I would use such gameplay to control players’ emotions. Also, in recent games tutorials seem to get very important. But when you are playing an action game, the screen suddenly stops and an explanatory note enters in. I really hate that sort of design.

Comiday：我也并不喜欢这样的设计。

I don’t like such design either.

楢村：我第一次去TGS的时候，到摊位上排队试玩，明明一个人限玩5分钟，结果3分多钟都在进行游戏教学。

When the first time I went to the Tokyo Game Show, I went to the booths for game trial play. There was a time limit of five minutes per person, but 3 minutes were spent on tutorials.

Comiday：现在一般都会设置专门的教学关，并没有玩游戏的实感。

Now most games will have a tutorial stage, which doesn’t feel like gaming.

楢村：说好听点就是亲切，说不好听就是无聊。比如说玩过《最终幻想》IV、V、VI的玩家，一直玩到X的话攻击方式以及魔法之类的都已经烂熟于心了，但是新作一出，一进游戏就是漫长的教学地狱，这种做法我并不太喜欢。而且《La-mulana》是动作游戏，如果在玩家享受动作快感的途中强制插入信息去停止玩家的动作，玩家兴奋的状态也就此终止了吧。所以除非必要，我是不会去停止玩家的动作的。之所以把提示用邮件方式发送，就是因为想看的人会主动去看，不想看的人继续玩下去也没关系，总之就是想着不要停下来。

It’s being nice to call it ‘friendly’, but it’s actually boring. For example, in the case of Final Fantasy, for players who have played series 5, 6, 7 and till 10, they are already familiar with the attack and magic of Final Fantasy. But once the new series is released, you are forced to go through the tutorial at beginning, which I don’t really like. Especially, La-mulana is an action game. So if players’ action is interrupted by messages, I think it will ruin their excitement as well. So I’m trying not to stop players’ action unless necessary. So the hints are sent via mail in the game. People who intend to read them can do it themselves, and players who doesn’t want to can just play as it is. I kept in mind not to interrupt the players.

Comiday：这一点我在玩游戏的时候，也有切身体会到，您喜欢做这类反差式的东西。

I noticed this when I was playing as well. Also you seem like to have such contrast things in the game.

楢村：这点自然是有人理解也有人讨厌，但是要想做出来的游戏让所有人都喜欢，那真的太难了。有喜欢总有不喜欢，那不如贯彻到底，让喜欢的人去享受乐趣就足够了。

Regarding this, there are people who understand it and those who hate it. It’s very difficult to make a game that everyone likes. Since I can’t satisfy all people, I’ll just do my best to let those who like my game enjoy it 100 percent.

Comiday：说起好恶，实际上您在游戏本身的表现上也经常会制造反差，比如说从石巨像的眼睛里突然喷射出光线，长老突然从画面外飞进屏幕之类的，我个人是觉得非常有趣。

Speaking of like and dislike, I think there are plenty of contrasting places, not just in the design of the room or the construction of the map. For example, the colossus suddenly shoots beam from its eyes, and the elder flies in from outside of the screen all of a sudden. I find such contrasting places in the game very interesting.

楢村：一般来说大家都不会那样做的（笑）。说实话，我也并不是计划犯行。因为当时Wiiware版的开发战线拉得太长，最初预定是半年就出货的，结果完全没能赶上，然后就按照一年出货的节奏去做了。但最早已经在YOUTUBE上把发售预告的PV给发了，到了第二年就并没有什么干货可以宣传了。也说不准能不能做出来，一般的厂商这时候闭上嘴不说话就OK，但我们不能这样，于是万般无奈就做了一个愚人节的假宣传视频。就是在那时把长老飞身顶石柱的场景加进去的，而我就想着如果把这一幕弄假成真的话……（笑）。

Normally people wouldn’t do that. In fact I didn’t plan for it. It’s all because of the development of Wiiware version took a drastically long period. First I was planning to release within half a year, but that was impossible at all. So I rescheduled the release for one year. But I had already uploaded the PV for our release on Youtube at the very beginning, and had nothing to promote in the second year! Not to mention that I wasn’t sure whether I could release the game by then. For this situation, normally the producers can just keep silent and it would be fine. But I had no choice but to make a lying video on April fool’s day. It was in that video I added the scene that the Elder jumps into the screen to support the pillar. And I thought, what if I REALLY add this scene into the game…

Comiday：原来是这样的设计！

Such a trick!

楢村：但一般想来是不会这么做的吧，正因为我们人少，才可以想着有趣就心血来潮去做。这也是少人数制作体制的特征。

Normally I don’t think people would do it. But because we only have a small number of people, so we can ‘do it because it is funny’. I guess it’s a feature of small teams.

Comiday：实话说一开始还是吓了一跳，但想到长老其实就是您的化身，突然感觉感情上可以接受了（笑）。

To be honest I was quite shocked at the beginning. But then I remembered that the Elder is actually a representation of Mr. Naramura and suddenly felt quite relieved.

楢村：说实话在离通关这么近的地方还插入这种笑料，一般来说是不会这么做的。

But honestly, putting such gag at this close to the last stage, normally people wouldn’t do so.

Comiday：回到节奏的话题，能说说您在地图分区上的考量吗？

Coming back to the topic of tempo. Would you mind talking about your consideration in designing the map?

楢村：一开始并没有过多考量，而是靠着想出的点子一步步推进，但实际玩了以后还是会发现“这里太宽敞了”、“这里有点儿无聊”等这样那样的问题。《La-mulana》的MSX版实际上是重做过一次的，花了很长的时间，才终于推出了这款游戏。之前也有提到过，做《La-mulana》的目的就是要把以前的游戏规模做得更大让人玩得更爽，但完成以后才发现并不是太有趣。

At first I didn’t think too much. Rather I just added more to it with my ideas. But when I actually played it I realized issues such as ‘this place is too empty’ or ‘it is boring here’. In fact, the very first version of La-mulana on MSX was reworked, and it took me a long time to be released. As I mentioned before, I made the game with a theme to play old games on a larger volume so that the players can have enough fun from it. But after I actually played it when I completed it, it wasn’t so interesting.

Comiday：此话怎讲？

Why is that?

楢村：长时间一直在重复同样的动作，从而丧失了趣味性。那么不如把游戏重做一次，把整个地图打印在纸上做标记。那时我依次检查了地图上的房间，发现很多地方啥也没有，于是我就在这些地方都设置了陷阱，也添加了几处落雷的设置，让无意义的房间从地图上消失。明明是一个解谜游戏，如果不管三七二十一用鞭子乱抽一通就可以解开谜题的话，就会变成公式化的作业了，于是就变换了解谜的方式，告诉玩家如果不好好动脑子的话可是会降下天罚的。由此渐渐形成了《La-mulana》的风格。在重新制作的时候，也会重新审视地图的设计，比如从出生点到关卡BOSS的路程太长，一直让玩家一条路走到黑要不要换个路径之类，会再次审视和考虑设计的合理性。前作从原始版本到PC移植推出经过了很长的时间，利用这些时间我们可以把通过收集各种信息把锻炼好的点子加到游戏中。然而第二作必须从一开始就考虑这些问题，这些问题从我在开发Wiiware版时，想出第二作的故事开始，至今也一直困扰着我，让我想尽办法去解决。通过第一作收集到的反馈意见，我了解到玩家讨厌什么，所以现在也会把地图打印出来去仔细进行检证。

The interest was gone after repeating the same thing for a long time. Well I thought that I’d start all over again by printing out the whole map on paper and writing memos. At then, I checked every room on the map and found quite a lot of places with nothing on them, so I added traps all over these places as well as lightning strikes to get rid of meaningless rooms from the map. It’s a puzzle solving game. If you can solve the puzzles simply by whipping and splashing, then it will become a tedious work. So I changed the way of solving puzzles and told the players that if they don’t use their mind, they will be punished by lightning strikes. This gradually formed the style of La-mulana. I also reviewed the design of the map during the remake. If the route between the start point and the boss of the stage was too long, I would consider changing to a different route, and reconsider the design. It took a long time for the previous work to be ported from MSX to PC. By using the time we can add the good ideas gathered in to the game. However for the second one, I had to consider these questions from the beginning. These questions have been disturbing me since I started developing Wiiware version, or when I thought about the storyline to the second one. From the feedback of La-mulana, I understood what the players hate, and would also print out the map to check my ideas even now.

Comiday：把有逻辑性的信息加入到游戏中是一项非常艰苦的作业。

Stuffing logical information into the game is very hard work.

楢村：没错，如果说要把第二作做到能玩的程度，那大致也就是今年的事儿。但如果要做到像前作一样设计很多精细的解谜环节的话，那我们的工作才刚刚开始。《La-mulana》是一个非常考验DEBUG和微调环节的游戏，如果这些环节失败的话，游戏很容易变得无聊。所以说我们一直都没有公布完成的时间。

I agree. Perhaps we can complete La-mulana2 to the extent that the whole game is playable by this year. But to make it a game with many mysteries and puzzles kneaded in like the previous work, we still have a lot of work to do. After that there’re debugging and adjustments to the game, which I believe are very important to the game. If it fails, the game can easily get boring and not fun at all. That’s why I haven’t announced when it can be completed yet.

Comiday：一年间都在反复做这些工作吗？

You’ve been doing these works for the whole year?

楢村：本来打算是2015年上市的，然而Wiiware版也是说着2009年上市，结果一直在延期。

Actually I was saying to release in 2015. Also I said to release the Wiiware version in 2009 and it’s been continuously delayed.

Comiday：还有一点注意到的是，《La-mulana》中不是经常会设计一些用于迷惑玩家的特殊区域吗？你能聊聊关于这方面的想法吗？

Another thing I noticed is that La-mulana always has some special areas and designs that will confuse the players. For example, the symmetric design in the demo version of La-mulana2. Could you please talk about this a little bit?

楢村：我其实比较喜欢去考虑这些东西。当然，其中很多也是受到了各种日本的漫画、动画、游戏作品的影响，而我也很喜欢去把不同的、崭新的世界展现在眼前的兴奋感给表现出来。在繁琐的空间之后突然用平坦的道路去接续，在迷宫之后设计神秘的空间等，使用相同的思维方式，自然而然地进行了这样的设计。

I would like to think about these things. Of course, Japanese manga and animation have absolutely influenced me, but I’m also really fond of expressing the excitement of revealing a different place. This is also the same as I mentioned just now that I wanted to change all the graphics and music. For instance, an annoying room followed by a flat road, or a secret mystery room waiting after a complicated maze. I used the same method, and designed all these unconsciously.

Comiday：我在最初接触《La-mulana2》的测试版时，因为左右两侧的房间是一个平衡的、对称的设计，所以一直怀疑会不会有什么机关在里边。

When I first played the demo of La-mulana2, I suspected there was a trick since the rooms on the left-side and right-side are designed symmetrically.

楢村：那个既不是打算迷惑玩家，也不是打算坑害玩家（笑）。之所以续作的地图要设计成这样的形式，是因为这样的地图设计对于游戏整体的解谜有着很重要的意义。《La-mulana2》的创意来源是北欧神话，在北欧神话中不是有世界树吗？所以地图整体设计成了树的形状，而以上三个关卡就是世界树的根基之所在，并非是为了迷惑玩家。

That wasn’t meant to confuse or kill the players. La-mulana2’s map was designed like this because it has significant meaning in solving the puzzle of the whole game. The idea of 2 was from Northern Europe myth. Isn’t there a world tree in Northern Europe myth? So the entire map is in the shape of a tree. The three stages are the roots of the world tree. I wasn’t planning to confuse the players.

Comiday：原来如此。

I see.

楢村：在最早开启Kickstarter项目时开发的测试版中，第一版关卡设计得很大，基本是想去哪里去哪里。而现在这版减少了房间总数。屏幕做成了宽屏，但空间显得有些太宽广了，所以稍微削减了房间的数量。另外就是在TGS试玩的时候，如果提供了太广阔的空间，第一次接触作品的玩家可能会迷失方向，考虑到这点，我们只开放了上半部分的区域。而说明性质的内容还是一边玩一边往里加。上一作则没太考虑这些方面，前四个BOSS都进行的比较顺利，只要按照顺利打通每个关卡，大家都可以见到水域的BOSS。但是想要见到那之后的一个BOSS，可是要踏上遥远的旅程，那里处理得非常失败，所以在续作中我尽量回避这种情况的出现，计划在在长时间的游戏过程中均等地安排BOSS战的插入时间，如果中间间隔太大，我会考虑安排一些事件进去。本来按照玩家的想法自由进行游戏是《La-mulana》的特征，这次虽然没有实现原定计划的安排，但我还是用自己的方式为玩家进行了BOSS战的安排。

At the time when our Kickstarter was launched, we designed the stage in our first demo, which was so wide that you can go wherever you want. The demo today has reduced the number of rooms and fit wide-screen. Because it gets a little bit too spacious, so we reduced the rooms. Also we are considering the trial play later at the Tokyo Game Show. For first-time players, they can get lost as the rooms are too big. So we only open the upper half area at start. Also the overview will be added while playing. I didn’t really consider these in my previous work. It goes very smoothly with the first four bosses. If you clear each stage in turn, everyone should be able to reach the Bahamut. But after this players will need to go a long way to see the next boss. I think that was a big failure and I’m trying my best to avoid that in this one. My plan is to have boss matches at same interval during the long gameplay. If the interval is too long, I will consider adding in some events. It’s a feature of La-mulana that the players can proceed as they want. Although this time we couldn’t arrange this as planned, I have prepared the boss battle for the players in my own way at least.

Comiday：我觉得对于第一次接触《La-mulana》系列——现在说是系列应该没问题了——的玩家来说是很亲切的处理方式。

I think for players who access La-mulana series for the first time, it’s quite friendly already. Now we have no problem to call it ‘series’.

楢村：也出于这方面的考量，这次尽量做得让人更容易明白。并非像区域连结纷繁复杂的前作一般，这次我们为大家准备更大的舞台，告诉大家下一步该攻略哪里，这样做应该比前作更加浅显易懂，所以希望大家都抱着轻松的心情去完成挑战。

It is also for such consideration, this time I have made it easy to understand. Unlike the previous one, where the connection between areas were complicated, this one provides a bigger stage, and explains to the players that ‘it is fine to clear this area next’. This will make it easier to understand so that people can challenge the game in a light mood.

坚持做“老”游戏的理由

Why did Nigoro insist on making retro games

Comiday：虽然现在才提起这个问题，还是请你说说旧时代游戏的优点。

We haven’t asked you so far, but please tell us a little bit about the merits of retro games.

楢村：我实际上并没有玩那么多游戏，比起其他的游戏开发者，我玩游戏算是少的，因为早年家里并不怎么给我买游戏，一年基本只能玩一两个作品。然后，从初中到高中这段时间几乎是完全没有玩游戏，到了大学接触到互联网，查询到以前的游戏作品的信息，才点燃了兴趣，一口气跑到秋叶原寻找各种游戏并买回来。旧时代的游戏表现力都比较低下，不管哪个作品，对游戏的说明都多少有不足之处。这种边探索规则，边进行游戏的方式，能让我从中获取快乐。尤其是去秋叶原买游戏的时候，由于没有说明书，根本不了解游戏规则，于是就自己发现规则。孩提时代，我完全不知道RPG是怎样的游戏。把卡带借给了朋友的老哥，到朋友家做客的时候，发现他老哥已经把游戏角色练得很强力了，这才第一次认识到RPG是一种通过打怪变强的游戏，渐渐发现了RPG的趣味性。在不足的表现中发散想象，一边探索一边前行，这才是老游戏的乐趣。所以说我们设计《La-mulana》时虽然在说明书上准备了很充分的内容，大家读起来会感觉到有趣，但在没有获取任何信息的情况下进行遗迹探索也肯定能感受到前所未有的快乐，我们在开发时也利用了这一点。现在嘴上说着老游戏有趣的人虽越来越多，但更多还是吹捧，实际上无趣的老游戏也是一抓一大把。

I actually hadn’t played that many games. Compared with other game developers, I’ve only played a small amount of games. That was because when I was young my parents didn’t buy me games often, only about one or two every year. Later when I entered middle school, I didn’t play any games at all. When I became a university student, I started using internet and looked into the old games. They attracted my interest and consequently I went to Akihabara, searched for and bought all sorts of game cartridges. After all, the expressiveness of retro games was quite low. Every game is somewhat insufficient in explanation. It was fun to explore the rules of the games while playing them. Especially when I went to Akihabara to buy games, because there were no game instructions, I couldn’t understand the rule at all, and had to discover the rule by myself, which was really fun. When I was a child, I didn’t understand what kind of game PRG was. I bought an RPG only by the name. Not knowing how to play it, I lent it to my friend’s brother. Later when I went to visit this friend, I found the characters of the game getting stronger. That was the first time I understood what kind of game RPG is, and got the fun of it. Using imagination to supplement the limited expression of the games, and proceeding through exploration, I think that is the fun part of retro games. So when designing La-mulana, we prepared an instruction book with sufficient details which is fun to read. But to start the game and to explore without any information would be definitely also enjoyable. We also used this in game development. These days there are more people claiming that ‘retro games were fun’, but they are more like lavish praise. Boring retro games are abundant as well.

Comiday：确实如此，不过有很多人喜欢那样的感觉。比如说《死灵战线（注：死霊戦線）》，角色突然出现在地图的中央，完全不知道下一步应该干什么。

Indeed. But there are people who like that kind of feeling. For example, the game War of Death starts with the character appears suddenly in the middle of the map, leaving the players totally confused with what to do next.

楢村：对，那个游戏一开始完全搞不懂要干什么，虽然看起来蛮有趣的。不过反复试个好几次的话，还是能够进行下去，走到比较远的地方的。

Yes. Although that game looks interesting, but you absolutely don’t know what to do at first. But if you try a few times, you should be able to proceed further.

Comiday：不过我没能打完那个游戏，因为途中出BUG了。

But I wasn’t able to finish that game. Ran into a bug in the middle.

楢村：对于我们来说那个时代的老游戏，并不是出一个就能买一个的，即便不那么有趣，也会一直玩到通关。即便通不了关，也能够享受到足够的乐趣，并没有像现在一样不通关就不行的游戏。像刚才说到的借给朋友他老哥的RPG，我也是花了两年的时间才通关的。这也是一种享受游戏快乐的方式。

For kids from my age, we weren’t able to buy whatever new retro game. So even the game might not be that interesting, we would still try to clear it. Even if we couldn’t, we would have enough fun through it, unlike the games now that you have to clear. Like the RPG that I lent to my friend’s brother, I spent two years to clear. This is also one way to enjoy the game, I think.

Comiday：小时候的KONAMI作品中，有没有特别让你印象深刻的作品？

Amongst KONAMI’s games, is there one that really impressed you?

楢村：小时候基本玩不到街机游戏，因为零花钱比较少，基本不会去干一分钟浪费一百日圆这种事儿，所以街机厅对我来说是禁区，更多玩到的是MSX平台上的KONAMI游戏，要说给我带来巨大冲击的还是《宇宙巡航机》。那时候《宇宙巡航机》的街机版是非常具有革新性、且人气非常高的游戏，而移植到家用机平台上的本作也是非常强力的。When I was a child, I could hardly play arcade games. Because I had very little pocket money, and would rarely spend 100 yen just for 1 minute on arcade games. Since I couldn’t go to the game center, I was playing KONAMI’s games on MSX, and it was Gradius that really shocked me. At that time Gradius on arcade game was very innovative and popular, but the ported one on gaming machine was also amazing.

Comiday：游戏性无可挑剔，世界观也是非常宏大。

The gameplay was flawless, and the game world was quite huge.

楢村：主要是针对不同机种的特性进行了移植。街机版有着非常华丽的背景，而MSX版背景是全黑的，选择了让游戏画面看起来更舒适的做法。其他厂商把画面绚丽的高性能机的游戏移植到MSX上的时候，也往往会直接使用相应的颜色，结果导致画面看不清楚。

The game was changed property for each platform. The arcade version had very colorful background, while the MSX version’s background was completely black. This was to make it easier for players to see the game properly. With other manufacturers, when they were porting games from high performance computers to MSX, they just used exactly the same background color, and ended up with an unclear graphic.

Comiday：杂质遍布屏幕的感觉吧？

Feels like noise all over the screen.

楢村：KONAMI的游戏在移植时会认真去考虑这些问题的处理，即便作品原来看起来是多么光鲜，一旦移植到MSX上，背景就会做成全黑。这种考虑到游戏的可玩性的做法，即便是身为孩子的我也是看得出来的。而实际玩了之后就会发现素质仍然很优秀。以前每年只有在生日和圣诞节才能有机会买到游戏，如果不珍惜机会，选到了不好玩的游戏的话就悲剧了。但是一听是KONAMI的游戏，就会觉得绝对很好玩且毫不犹豫地砍手。而且，游戏厂商各自都有擅长的领域，比如说提起FALCOM就会联想到RPG，但当时KONAMI真是什么游戏都做，射击游戏、动作游戏甚至麻将游戏。

With KONAMI’s games, they would seriously consider these issues. No matter how flashy the original game was, once it was ported to MSX, the background would be made all black. Even as a kid, I could see the duly consideration behind this was to make the game easy to play. In fact, after you played them you would find they were of great quality. Back then I could only buy games at my birthday and Christmas every year, so it would be a hard time if I chose some boring game. But KONAMI’s new games were quality guaranteed. Besides, manufacturers all have their specialized genre, right? For instance, when speaking about Falcom, you will think about RPG. But KONAMI at that time really made all sorts of games, such as shooting game, action game and even mahjong game.

Comiday：确实是什么都有，不过也有很多看上去欠考虑斟酌的企划。

They did make everything. But there were lots of reckless projects as well.

楢村：是的，不过我非常中意KONAMI决定做就一定做好的态度。

Whatever genre of game, once decided to make it, they are determined to make it good. I like this attitude of theirs.

尾声

Epilogue

Comiday：之前在网站上公开的《La-mulana》遗迹问答特别有意思，如果有机会的话，能不能尝试做个复古的猜谜游戏呢？

The quiz of ruins published on the website was fairly interesting. If you had the opportunity, would you try to make a quiz game of the old style?

楢村：那是作为游戏宣传的一环制作的，结果花了太多功夫（笑）。猜谜游戏的文字量不是非常大吗？因为文字量大没法本土化，所以没起到太好的宣传效果。

That was done as part of public relations, but it took too much effort. Because the quiz had too many words, and the localization couldn’t be done. So the publication effort was not going so well.

Comiday：最后请你公布一些《La-mulana2》的最新消息。

At last please disclose some latest information of La-mulana2.

楢村：现在正在锐意制作中，又是一作数据量很大的游戏，做起来并不太容易。总之在9月TGS到来之前我们会尽量多完成一些工作，那时候把完成的东西拿出来给大家看看，然后公布一下大概的完成时间。然后多亏了Kickstarter平台，现在还在给参与众筹的玩家不断地更新情报。除此之外还没有公布任何的消息，大概在TGS结束以后会一点一点公开新作的消息吧。

We are really in the middle of making it. Again it’s a game with a large quantity of data so it’s quite difficult. But we will make more progress before the Tokyo Game Show in September, and release what we have accomplished so far then and announce the approximate finish time. And thanks to Kichstarter, as I have always been updating our backers. Other than that, I am not in the state of giving out any information at the moment. Maybe after the Tokyo Game Show I will put out the information about that part little by little.

Comiday：我个人还有一个非常想知道的事情，那就是——长老还会登场吗？

One thing that I really want to ask personally, but will the elder appear again?

楢村：会的会的！在第一作中的随机对话里有提到如果把La-mulana遗迹改造成观光景点可以赚大钱的内容，结果长老真这么干了！小杉博士通关以后，遗迹虽随之崩塌，但长老把入口处改造成了观光景点，摇身一变化作有钱人。

Yes, yes! In a random conversation in La-mulana it was mentioned that the ruins can be made into a sightseeing spot and makes lots of money, and the elder really did it. After the ruins collapsed as the doctor cleared them, the elder changed the entrance as a sightseeing spot and became a rich.

Comiday：还有这样的设定啊！

Such story setting!

楢村：虽然和本作的故事没什么关联就是了（笑）。

Although it hasn’t too much connection with the story of this game though.

Comiday：如果可以的话还想听更多有关后日谈的故事。

I’d like to hear more about the sequel of the story.

楢村：系列继续往后出的话，可能会因为登场角色太多，故事也会变得零散，但我们现在才出到第二作，所以让前作角色露个脸还是很轻松可以办到的事儿。这游戏并不会死人，所以全员都在的，我是说，大概吧（笑）。

As the story continues, we will have more and more characters and the story might fall apart as well. But it is just sequel 2, so there’s no problem to put some of the previous characters in this one. Nobody will die in the game, so every character is there. Probably.

The End

2016.8 in Osaka

（取材/多魔    摄影/Penance   英文翻译/羊叔）